In an open election, the winner is the one who gets more votes. But what happens when authoritarians stage “selections” instead of elections, or try to rig the outcome while still allowing other parties and candidates to campaign?
Mu Sochua and David Smolansky Urosa, prominent Cambodian and Venezuelan opposition leaders who managed to win election to office against the odds, share their perspectives on how bold oppositionists around the world have tried to challenge authoritarians at the heavily tilted ballot box—and ultimately retain and even build connections to home from exile.
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Guests
Sochua is a Cambodian oppositionist, who served in Parliament from the city of Battambang from 2013-17, a seat which she previously held from 1998-2003. She was a member and vice president of the Cambodia National Rescue Party until its dissolution, the Sam Rainsy Party, and the royalist FUNCINPEC party. During FUNCINPEC’s coalition with Cambodia’s Hun Sen regime from 1998-2004, she served as Minister of Women and Veteran’s Affairs. Now in exile, she was banned from politics in 2017 by a Cambodian court.
Guests
David is an oppositionist and activist, elected as Venezuela’s youngest mayor when he led El Hatillo municipality in Caracas from 2013-17. Beginning as a student activist, David later led non-violent protests against the regime of Nicolas Maduro and was forced into exile in 2017, after the regime-controlled Supreme Court issued him with an illegal arrest warrant, voided his passport, removed him from office, and arbitrarily banned him from holding public positions. David served as Special Envoy of the Organization of American States for the Venezuelan migration and refugee crisis.
Evan: It's Politics Possible, a podcast about the unconventional forces and technologies reshaping conventional politics, and a call to action for young politicians, entrepreneurs, and tech whizzes to fight for a better future. I'm Evan Feigenbaum, a former American diplomat who advised two Secretaries of State and a former Secretary of the Treasury.
Alena: And I'm Alena Popova, a Russian opposition politician and women's rights activist. I ran for office and was oppressed, surveilled, and repeatedly detained by Vladimir Putin's regime. I've worked in politics, technology, law, and civic action.
Evan: And I've also had to deal with some of the world's dark forces, but in the very different world of geopolitics and diplomatic negotiations. We come from two parallel universes, and our countries have become strategic adversaries.
Alena: But we’re still passionate about what politics can do. And we think young people around the world need to learn from each other to secure a democratic and open future.
Alena: In today's episode, we're talking to Mu Sochua and David Smolansky, prominent Cambodian and Venezuelan opposition leaders. Each of them is a powerful voice and unique for many reasons. But one of those reasons is that, despite living in authoritarian political systems, they both managed to get elected to office. We wanted them to share their perspectives on how bold oppositionists around the world have tried to challenge authoritarians at the heavily tilted ballot box.
Newsclip 1: I want a voice. But that voice cannot be heard if I'm captured.
Newsclip 2: The deputy leader of Cambodia's main opposition party decided to leave for neighboring Thailand.
Newsclip 3: Cambodia's ruling party on the defensive after it declared a landslide victory in Sunday's national election. Prime Minister Hun Sen's heir apparent insisting the vote is legitimate.
Newsclip 4: Venezuela's Supreme Court has jailed another Caracas area mayor for not obeying orders to shut down protests in his district. David Smolansky was sentenced to 15 months behind bars in a ruling last night. He is the fifth opposition mayor to be removed or jailed in the last two weeks.
Newsclip 5: [Protestors chanting in Spanish].
Evan: Sochua and David are both in exile now. But when they were still in Cambodia and Venezuela, they ran campaigns and were elected despite the enormous obstacles that these systems and two leaders, Hun Sen and Nicolas Maduro, threw into their path.
Evan: For a lot of us, it's hard to imagine how one runs for office as an oppositionist in a country like that. But my co-host Alena knows something about that too, having run for office herself several times as an opposition candidate in Russia. So we talked to Sochua and David about what happens when authoritarians stage “selections” instead of elections, or try to rig the outcome while still sometimes letting others campaign.
Evan: So can I just start by stating a couple things that are obvious. First, I'm the only person in this group, including my co-host, who's not actually a politician who's run for elective office. And then second, one of the things that is so interesting to me about this episode is that my co-host has a lot in common with the two guests, not just in the sense of being a politician but that you've run for office in countries where a lot of people would say they have transitioned to being dictatorships. The electoral system, such as it is, is heavily tilted in favor of a ruling party or it's rigged.
Evan: And the other thing is, I'm an American. And so as an American, I think a lot of Americans would look at Venezuela, or Russia, or Cambodia and say, “What is it to be in politics in a country where the ballot box is so tilted in favor of elites or the regime that's entrenched?”
David: To be in politics in Venezuela is to risk your life—literally to risk your liberties, to risk the possibility to be in your country.
David: I've been in exile already for seven years. When you face a brutal dictatorship that we have had in Venezuela in 25 years, you face many challenges: harassment, persecution, threats, illegal detention, execution, killing, tortures.
David: In Venezuela right now, we have the biggest torture center in Latin America, El Helicoide, which is where hundreds of people have been physically and psychologically tortured. So that’s the cost to do politics in Venezuela—but at the same time it is a sacrifice that some have to do, which I include myself. Because we are fighting to restore our democracy, our freedom, the rule of law, and the possibility to have millions of people who have left to go back.
Evan: But you ran for election?
David: I ran, yes.
Alena: You were the youngest one, I remember.
David: Yes, I was the youngest mayor in Venezuela. I was 28 years old. I was elected mayor of El Hatillo City, which is one of the five municipalities of Caracas. In that moment, Maduro had one year in power after Chavez died. And I saw the opportunity of running for El Hatillo.
David: I saw two opportunities, basically. One is to show that young people could do good things in public service, which we were able to deliver with decreased crime, almost 40 percent, and kidnapping, that was the main challenge, we decreased kidnapping more than 80 percent. And we were recognized as one of the most transparent local governments in Venezuela, where corruption is a state policy.
David: So it was an opportunity for a new generation to show that we could do public service in a good way: accountable, open, honest. And at the same time challenge the regime. That was the second thing that I saw when I ran for mayor, to, as an authority, to be someone outspoken, and criticize, and challenge Maduro in that moment when he was persecuting many opposition leaders, where we were facing the worst humanitarian crisis—at least in the Western Hemisphere right now, where 9.3 million Venezuelans can’t eat three times a day. So sometimes I had to deploy the police, not to face thieves, but to face, to organize people who were queuing to buy food or to buy medicine, because those are the consequences when you have that type of regime.
David: And I was part of, and I co-led, protests that happened in 2014 and 2017, and that is why Maduro went after me. And by the way, I saw Maduro face-to-face twice at the Palace because sometimes, well, he invited mayors to meet at the palace. That was a discussion: if we go or if we don't go, if we recognize him or we don't recognize him.
David: But when I went there, I had the opportunity to say many things to his face like “free the political prisoners.” And also, I told him to his face that democracy is not only elections, it's way more than elections.
Evan: But they do have elections. What's in it for the regime to let the opposition run at all?
Evan: Why do they? Is it a tool to legitimate the regime? They hold an election?
David: That is why I said to Maduro that democracy is more than elections. Because if you only evaluate a democratic system because of elections, that's not enough. Especially in modern democracies, you have to go way, you have to go beyond elections.
David: You need to talk about human rights. You have to talk about civil rights. You have to talk about access to justice, rule of law, private property, and many other things that always in Venezuela are under attack constantly by the regime. So I said to Maduro to his face, "Democracy is not only elections."
David: "Democracy is to have freedom, to have rule of law, to respect the minorities."
Evan: What did he say?
David: Oh, he said to me, “Oh, you have a good speech,” but “You should run for governor but take care of your local government because you are so young, and you probably will be burned out after you finish,” and blah, blah, blah.
David: And then he told me, “Do you recognize me or you don't recognize me as the president?” And I said to him, I did not recognize him as the president. He went nuts. And he told me, well, “Get out of the Palace” and, “You don't stay here.”
David: So, you know, it is a risk. And if you run for election in an authoritarian regime in a naive way, you become part … If you run in a naive way, you will become a part of it and it will end very bad. Or some people, which is for me the most dangerous, they are co-opted. And they become part of the system. That's the problem that we're having in Venezuela.
David: So, for example, the mayor who is now in my town or other mayors, they are a so-called “opposition.” But they are not. They have become part of the system. So, this type of regime creates their own oppositions. You know, we're having an election, but those guys who run are not challenging the regime.
David: But you have to see it as an opportunity to really challenge the dictatorship—not only doing things on local level but to challenge the dictatorship. If you don't do that, you're wasting your time.
Evan: And Sochua, does that resonate with you? Because Cambodia has changed a lot. It feels like it was one Cambodia when you were in politics and it's a very different Cambodia now.
Sochua: What David was talking about is exactly what we went through. But I want to start with when I was a little girl, many, many, many years ago, my father used to tell me, tell us, “Don't ever get into politics, especially if you are a girl or a woman.” But I got into politics.
Sochua: In Cambodia, there’s a saying: “If you're in politics, in opposition politics, you hold three passports.” One passport is to go to jail, one passport is to go to your tomb, and one passport is to leave the country. I used the passport to go to jail. I used one passport to flee the country or I would have been in jail again. And I don't think I want to use the passport to go to my tomb.
Sochua: That's why I want to continue in this field of politics. And I think that it is essential if you want to live with dignity, to live with respect, to live as a citizen.
Sochua: If you want to have a decent life, to have a family, you have to get and be involved. You have to know what is the quality of education [you want] for your children. You have to know what is the quality, what is the access, how do I access healthcare?
Sochua: And all of that is politics. That's why it is important to explain to the people.
Sochua: The meaning of politics to me? It means that when I was, I went out, you know, Cambodia went to genocide from 1975 to 1979. I was out of the country. Otherwise, I would have been dead because of the color of my skin, because I'm half Chinese, because I'm educated. “She has to die” because the Khmer Rouge, the communists, wanted to start society in Cambodia at “Year Zero,” meaning no education, no currency, nothing.
Sochua: Now, what is important to say to the people when we are in politics, we want the country to be our country. It's not a country of a family. It's not the country of a group. It's not the country of a political party. It is our country to start with. And if it is our country to start with, then we don't wait for things to happen for us or to us. We don't wait for quality education. We go and we look. We build every single part of our country ourselves by being informed, by being active, and by challenging what we don't think is right with what is right for us.
Sochua: It's not right when our people don't have land anymore, and the land belongs to the big companies. The land belongs to the big families. The land belongs to the Chinese companies. That is not right. And so why do we stand, sit, and wait for the land to return to us? It will never happen.
Sochua: That's why, when we talk about politics, we have to put it in the context of the real issues of the people, and especially of women who struggle so hard day in and day out.
Sochua: And that's to me is politics.
Alena: Right. I want to add that all dictators, they're afraid of the young generation, of youth, and of women. So they’ve labeled us as extremists. because we women are fighting for a brighter future and they really don't know how to deal with the younger generation.
Alena: So especially if you’re in politics and you're, let's say, 25-plus, you have a very different narrative and use very different language [from them].
Alena: So, you know, I was designated as a “foreign agent” because I am against the war with Ukraine, but because I'm a feminist they called me an “extremist.” And they spread a lot of rumors and crazy stuff about me.
Alena: And, you know, women in our countries, they are mostly apolitical. They don't believe in politics and it's become very hard to explain to them that they are the vast majority among the population, and “your voice, your choice, matters.” So how do you explain that to your main voters?
Alena: And by the way, who were your main voters, men or women? Because in my case, I was fighting for women's rights but my main voters were men. It's easy to mobilize young people if you're young, but it's very hard to mobilize women [as a woman who seeks change] because they are for stability, they don't want revolutions, blood, violence. And mostly they associate all these changes with violence and so they're afraid of it.
Alena: So how do we deliver these great messages about the future?
Sochua: As I say—and I will continue to say because that's how I earned every single ballot—you get every single vote by going door to door, village to village.
Sochua: I was in exile. I mean, I left the country during the genocide and I came back 18 years later. So there was a gap—not a change in terms of time but there was a gap in terms of the darkness during the genocide. And then the United Nations came in, there was a peace treaty, and we were able to return to Cambodia, and that's when I returned.
Sochua: But when I was growing up for 18 years in Cambodia, I was not allowed—because I was a young woman, I was a girl—I was not allowed to go around the country. But when I came back, I was looking at a Cambodia that was destroyed.
Sochua: So now we had the chance to be part of Cambodia, of the reconstruction of Cambodia. We could go back there.
Sochua: And when I went back there, I didn't even know the country. But I was determined that there would never be a return to the genocide in Cambodia. Therefore, I walked. And I started to learn my language, to learn Cambodian again, because I was educated in French and then I went to America. So I came back speaking very little Cambodian, my own language. I knew very little about my country.
Sochua: But it was because of the [political] campaign that I had to go door to door, village to village, crossing rivers. It was the most beautiful, beautiful, beautiful moment of my life. And every electoral campaign has the same energy.
Alena: Yeah I totally agree!
Sochua: But it was so hot. And it’s in the rivers and in the rice fields of Cambodia that you feel alive, that you feel you have to fight, that you must fight.
Sochua: And I'm very, very unusual because I would sing. [Sings in Khmer]. People would then know that it’s the opposition: “The opposition is in our village!”
Sochua: And the song goes, “We are the Cambodian people. We have land. We have farms. But it's all gone. It's all gone.” And this is when I, that we would jump in. And we’d say, “No! It's not gone! We must stop this erosion. We must stop this deforestation. We must stop corruption. And this is why every single one of us must join the campaign.”
Sochua: It's not “our” [candidate’s] campaign. It's not “this party's” campaign. It's our campaign for change. It's our campaign for a better Cambodia.
Sochua: And as a woman, you know, more than half of the population are women. So every single part of this song is about the part of the women, the lives of the women in the countryside, in the rice fields, in the marketplace, even in the brothels, I think.
Sochua: I was also a woman minister, the first female to run the Women's Ministry. And I went in there saying, “We are together, sister. This is our country.”
Sochua: I think by doing that same thing, by saying it again and again, “This is our country. This is our nation,” did they believe? Did they vote afterwards? Every single time the opposition voices would vote, to the point that they had 43 percent.
Sochua: The regime dissolved our party in 2017, and that's why I had to flee again. Our party is no longer inside Cambodia and is dissolved.
Alena: The whole party?
Sochua: The whole, the whole. We exist only outside. However we still maintain the logo, we still maintain the party name from outside, and because we know that the regime cannot destroy the spirit for change. We're still there inside morally. We are responsible. Morally we are there.
Evan: Can you compare your voters? It sounds like disproportionately, your voters were women voters because that's who your message resonated with. I guess you [Sochua] represented a rural constituency and you said you were in villages. So describe your voting demographic.
David: I think it was almost 50/50. I mean, Venezuela is very balanced on gender. Yeah. It's 51/49, 52/48, but it was very …
Evan: I guess what I'm saying is, is there a type of voter that votes opposition in Venezuela?
David: Right now? Everyone. 9 out of 10. Young people, men, women, elderly. But the democratic opposition leader right now in Venezuela is a woman, and she was elected in a primary that went very well last year.
David: And actually, this is something important, that for the first time in these 25 years, the opposition is led by a woman.
David: And the reason the country was hopeless a year ago was that, for example, most Venezuelans came to the U.S., to the southern border. But right now, we are literally a month away from this election that we are aware could be a fraud. We are aware that something could happen to her. And actually, she's banned from running but we were able to maneuver that because someone on her behalf is running as the opposition candidate.
David: Basically, we had a primary last year after the interim government was dismantled. The opposition was divided, and the opposition was orphaned, something that we face in different type of regimes, because these regimes are very smart in dividing their opposition and creating mistrust among us.
David: We had that moment last year and we said, “Okay, we have to choose a leadership that could lead the opposition. Let's do a primary.” And the regime underestimated the primary because they have the repressive apparatus and social control. Actually, the regime put some people that labeled themselves as so-called “opposition” running in the primary, but people didn't believe in them fortunately.
David: And Maria Corina won by a landslide. She got 93 percent of the vote, and 2.6 million people went to vote. And that was a lesson.
Evan: In a primary. So you can already bound it that at least 2.6 million Venezuelans want the opposition.
David: And I was, I had to coordinate the voting overseas that for us was so powerful because we have 8 million Venezuelans right now as migrants and refugees worldwide. So we were able to organize also that voting in the primary in 77 cities across the world, including 14 here in the U.S.
David: After she was elected, no one saw that coming—that 2. 6 million people were going to participate. Obviously, she was banned to run, and for the second time because the regime banned her for running during the campaign of the primary.
David: And the calculation of the regime was like, “Okay, if we ban her to be president, no one will go to the primary. No one will go to vote.” And you know what happened? People said, “You know what? Now I'm going to participate. This will be the way that I'm going to say to the regime, ‘I will not shut down my voice.’”
David: And it was so powerful. There are many things that happened, but just to make things shorter, she was banned. She proposed someone on her behalf. And with international community pressure, this person has been allowed to run. He's a man. His name is Edmundo González. And now we're a month away from the election, and every poll says that Maduro will lose bad. Very bad. I mean, the gap between Edmundo González and Maduro is more than 20 percent.
David: But what is interesting here is that Edmundo González is the candidate, but Maria Corina is still rallying the country. And everywhere she goes, the town goes with her. Literally. Hundreds of thousands of people. You can see the images. But it's the first time that the opposition is led by a woman and it’s so powerful.
David: And especially when you see young people in Venezuela that are missing their parents because they fled the country. And they say to Maria Corina, they look at her like a mom, “I want my parents back here,” and “I want my grandparents back here.” “I want my brother.” And they cry with her. And basically, they look at her like a mom.
David: It's so powerful because it's honest. It's authentic. And I think the regime has been a little bit of underestimating this huge movement that is going on in Venezuela. Obviously, I think that there's not only underestimation from them. I think we have done things better. We have learned from mistakes from the past and maybe, maybe there will be a transition in Venezuela for democracy soon.
Evan: Why would Maduro allow it?
David: Because he has become the first president in Latin America to have an open investigation in the International Criminal Court, the ICC. And not only him, others as well who are responsible for crimes against humanity. Let’s remember that Maduro was not recognized a few years ago by 60 countries.
David: Maduro is creating a huge destabilization in the region. 8 million people have fled Venezuela. Only in the last three years, more than 700,000 Venezuelans have come to the U.S. through the southern border. If it were a city in the U.S., only those 720,000 Venezuelans who have come to this country would be one of the top 20 cities in the U.S. And if you take also the ones who came in the past, we're already 1 million people in the U.S.
David: But we are 3 million in Colombia. We're 1.5 million in Peru. We're 500,000 in Chile, Brazil, Ecuador. So, the region, the region doesn't have infrastructure, public services, the budget to pay for receiving Venezuelans who are fleeing this dictatorship. And I have to remind that people fleeing Venezuela is a man-made disaster It's not a war. It's not a civil war. It's not an invasion. It's not a natural disaster. And now we have more Venezuelan migrants or refugees than Syrians and Ukrainians. That's insane.
David: That's one thing. The other thing is that he's destabilizing the region. He's a threat to many of the democracies across the region.
David: Look at Nicaragua. Nicaragua is depending on Venezuela. And look at Cuba. Many people say that Venezuela depends on Cuba. In some way, yes, especially for its Intel community, counterintelligence security forces. But also Cuba has been dependent for the whole of this century on Venezuela because of the oil that Venezuela is providing to Cuba. Probably Venezuela has given more money to Cuba that what the Soviet Union gave for four decades to Cuba.
David: And then security is at risk because this is a narco state. 25 percent of the economy in Venezuela is run by illicit, more specifically drug trafficking, illegal mining, human trafficking, smuggling. So he's intoxicating, you know, all of the financial system across the region. It is something.
David: You know, it's toxic. Even left-wing governments like Colombia with Petro and Brazil with Lula have taken some distance saying, “You know, people have the right to choose.” And I have to say, this is beyond ideology, by the way. We have tried here in the U.S. to keep this bipartisan. We have made a huge effort to have Republicans and Democrats supporting our cause because Maduro is not a leftwing guy, or liberal, or whatever he is. He’s a criminal. It goes beyond that.
David: This is one of the few countries in the Latin America where the LGBTQ plus community cannot marry in the same sex marriage is banned Venezuela. Or Maduro, for example, is not committed with climate change. One of the fifth-fastest deforestations in the world is going on in southeast Venezuela, in our Amazon.
David: So don't tell me that this guy is committed with those ideas. It goes beyond ideology. If we, if the international community understands that, that will make things easier for us to have a peaceful transition to democracy.
Alena: Stay with us for more of our discussion with David and Sochua. We'll talk about being in exile but staying connected to home, the use of social media to unite for political purpose, and ideas and techniques for building and sustaining a movement.
Alena: Let's talk about exile. So, you're not in your country but you have, as I heard, you have hope to go back to your country. So what about you, Sochua? Do you think that you can go back to your country in the near future? And how do you feel in exile?
Alena: Because I was highly traumatized. You are out of your country, you want to fight. And what I’m hearing now is that you have the hope that we have to fight.
Alena: And you know, we all have it inside us. We are all warriors, like white knights. But if you are in exile, can you believe that you can influence, that you can choose, that you can change anything? That you can choose this future?
Alena: Maybe people don't believe in that because you are in a safe place and they are not, and they are suffering from the current regime.
Sochua: No, I think, as I said, we are in exile but it's like an extension of Cambodia, where in this part of Cambodia, which is in exile, we are safe. But does it mean that we stop thinking? Does it mean that we stop believing? No!
Sochua: When you are in a safe place, this is better—this is when you have the highest obligation to organize, to mobilize, to keep up the hope. But having hope alone does not help. From our experience, even you say there are 8 million Venezuelans outside of Venezuela, there are 3 million, 3 million, Cambodians in the diaspora, in a population of 17 million. And 2 million Cambodians are migrant workers, illegal migrant workers in Asia.
Sochua: Why Asia? Why migrant workers? Because at home in Cambodia, they lost their land. They're the poorest of the poor. They don't have any education.
Sochua: So they cross the border and then become migrant workers. Like in the States, you know? You cross the border and then you get whatever job you have.
Sochua: Therefore, it is essential for us to have a plan to engage this population. There is a difference in the diaspora—you have the migrant workers, the 2 million, but then you have Cambodian Americans, you have Cambodian Europeans, you have Cambodian Australians, who have jobs, who have lives, who have lived in a democracy, who are living in a democratic world.
Sochua: However, that's why it is essential for us to engage them. Because otherwise they feel too comfortable. They’ll forget Cambodia. They can forget on a daily basis. But we know that in their heart, they don't forget Cambodia.
Sochua: In building this movement—it's called the Khmer Movement for Democracy—we stress three things. One, is the national identity. We don't lose this national identity: wherever we go, we sing our song, we sing our anthem. 90 percent of us are Buddhist, and we are Muslim as well. So what is our identity? First, you have to hang on to this identity because we're looking at the common point that will bring us together. We go to the pagoda, we pray together every single holiday or Sunday. It is a moment when we say, “We are one people. Let's not disagree. We are one people.”
Sochua: Although the regime is in the diaspora community, if we don't organize the diaspora community, then the regime will continue to divide us even outside of Cambodia. So that's very essential that we get mobilized.
Sochua: We are mobilized, and by mobilizing, we have to also think that it is not going to be tomorrow that we go home. It may be five years from now, it may be 10 years from now. But we have to organize We have to educate, especially the third generation. My grandchildren, our grandchildren, who are in the diaspora, how much do they know about Cambodia?
Sochua: They won't know, unless we in the movement engage the third generation to make them have the Cambodian blood inside them and to also get them involved in American politics, the politics of Europe. I just came from Europe, talking about the European elections, the French elections with the French Cambodians. You have to be there. It is your country as well—France is your country as much as Cambodia.
Sochua: Why is it important? Because we need the international community to back us up. The regime will not let us go home. We are protected with the passports that we hold.
Sochua: And the third part of the movement is to connect the dots. There are many educated Cambodians out of that 3 million. They are engineers. They're bright people. They're students at Harvard University, Wellesley, and all that. Bring them in.
Sochua: The essential part of it is not to be bitter. The essential part of it is not to say, “We’re not going to go home, we're never going to win.” When we hear that in the community, we say, “This is the regime talking. We will not say these words because you are repeating the words of the regime. This is not in our vocabulary.” Our vocabulary is change. Our vocabulary is that we’ll go home together. Cambodia will be better. We need a better Cambodia and it's up to us.
David: On the question that Alena had on the exile, I think one advantage that we have, maybe from leaders that have been in exile in the past, is globalization, interconnection through social media. I know that you know these can obviously disadvantage because of misinformation. [But] I think we have better channels to communicate with our people in our countries.
David: Maybe in the past, in the history of Europe, in Latin America, in Asia, [there are] vast examples of leaders who were in exile and then came back to change the history of those countries. Some of them became prime ministers, became presidents, or became important governors or ambassadors. So the most important thing is to avoid that this regime breaks your mind. And that doesn't mean that sometimes you aren’t sad, or you could be depressed, or you could be down. If you are not like that, you are not normal.
David: Obviously, you need also that space to talk about it with your loved ones or wherever you decide. But at the end, you, we—we have to beat them here. We cannot be beaten psychologically. It cannot break your mind. You're going to sooner or later meet them, and I think that's crucial when you are in exile.
Alena: Yeah. I want to highlight this, because you had everything in your countries. Like Sochua and you, you were elected, and then suddenly you lost everything, and it wasn't your fault. You lost it and you had a lot of influence. You had a lot of power and you lost it, and you have nothing because you are in exile.
Alena: Isn't it traumatizing to you? I think sometimes, “Oh my God, how can I survive?” So I really miss it. How can I gain my power again? Because I'm not there, and people don't believe. They don't believe my ideas because I'm not there, and they think, “Okay, so we are suffering here, you're in a safe place. Why do we have to believe you?”
David: Well, yes. I mean, when I was a mayor at 28, I had bodyguards with me. I had vehicles. I had, you know, even though it was very limited, the resources that we have but I was first the civil authority of a city. By the moment I was illegally removed from office and the issue that was worn against me, I had a 74 percent approval.
David: And if the elections were held, were held during that moment, I would have been reelected. And the projection is that I could have even run for a governor.
David: And then you are one, one of many, especially when you come to the U.S., one of many. But not many people have the story that we're sharing on this podcast, for example. And this is a very powerful tool to explain to people here in the U.S. or across the world that listen to this podcast or any other that we have participated in, that what we are facing is also a way to educate.
David: I think in other dictatorships, we need to understand that they use democracy to destroy democracy. Venezuela was one of the most prosperous democracies and economies during the second half of the 20th century. Many people wanted to go to live in Venezuela. Latin America had plenty of dictatorships, countries with hyperinflation, wars happening in Central America, in Colombia. We had 4 million migrants—Venezuela was one of the countries that was a reference in receiving people that were fleeing those conflicts in Latin America, or even people that fled Europe after the Second World War.
David: These guys that are now in power, they use what democracy provides to kill democracy, right? And we have become almost like a failed state. But we need to learn from that to educate the new generation. And of course you are one of many, but I think our stories are powerful.
David: And I like what Sochua said that we're an extension of our countries. I think that's very powerful. They are with us, and we are with them.
Alena: It's like a session with my psychologist, you know? Because I lost a lot of kilos because of that situation. I was very frustrated. You can imagine.
David: No, this is normal. It's normal. Don't feel bad about it. It's normal. And it's important to take care of mental health. That's one of the things that I worked on the most when I was at the OAS [Organization for American States]—mental health for migrants and refugees, because it's so traumatizing fleeing your country, being away from your relatives, being harassed by the regime. So yeah, it's normal.
Evan: When we come back, we'll talk about the power of politics—and politics for purpose. Politics is always about wins and losses. But when in exile, it's also about consciousness, mobilization, and how to sustain hope in the face of adversity.
Evan: When Alena and I started this podcast, we had a conversation about how cynical people were becoming about politics. And we said, you know, you look around the world, and everybody's cynical. And especially young people—they're really cynical. And in an authoritarian society, where you have leaders in power and regimes that are as entrenched as they are in Cambodia, in Venezuela, and in Russia, it's even easier to become cynical because it's hard to remove these people from power. And what's more they don't let you compete. And yet, you [David] compete, and you [Sochua] compete, and you [Alena] compete.
Evan: And so it is politics. Because when I listen to all three of you talk, you're broadening the definition of what politics is about. And the purpose of politics becomes a little bit different, and I think more meaningful, than it is in an electoral democracy like France, or Germany, or the United States.
Evan: In this country, or in Germany, or in France or in Denmark, politics is usually about who wins and who loses, and that's it. Right? You go to the ballot box—somebody wins, somebody loses. But when I listen to you three talk, most of the time you don't have a chance of winning, so it's not just about wins and losses.
Evan: But what it is about is—and correct me if you think I'm wrong—first, what I think I hear is it’s about consciousness. Second, mobilization. And third hope.
Evan: It's consciousness because people don't have political consciousness. So, Sochua, you go into village, you sing a song, you give people a sense of consciousness about what it is to be mobilized, and be active, and have ownership of the country.
Evan: Then it's mobilization because even if you're banned, even if you can't win in a legal sense, you're still mobilizing 2 million plus people in Venezuela to be active in politics.
Evan: And then there's hope, because it's not just about the here and now. You're nurturing some hope for change.
Evan: And that is politics, and it's really powerful. And it's actually more powerful in a way than it is when it's just about who wins and loses at the ballot box, you know, next Tuesday. Which is interesting because people can become more cynical about politics in an authoritarian society. But actually, you're describing a much more hopeful politics than I think is intrinsic to the politics in a lot of more established societies, electoral systems, and certainly even in a consolidated democracy.
Evan: Am I crazy with that?
David: Not at all.
Alena: Oh, I disagree. Seriously, I disagree.
Alena: It's always about who wins. Because if you fight, if you're fighting for the brightest future, if you want to see the brightest future, then you believe, believe, believe, and then you're tired of it. You think, “Okay, why do I have to believe in anything? Because it's all bullshit.”
Alena: So when we are participating in these elections, it's not just about mobilization but about who will win.
Evan: So how do you not lose hope if they rig it against you?
Alena: It's a good question.
Evan: I mean, that's the question, right? I mean, they don't want to let any of you win.
Alena: But you have to win because this is the main goal—to win and to show people, “Yes, you can. Yes, we can.”
David: I was about to say that you need to win, I totally agree. But I think that once you win, it's not a conventional government, right? Because when you are in government, like it happened to me when I was a mayor—well, for example, they had to lead and participate and call for protests. And maybe, I don't know, a mayor from any city here in the U.S. cannot or doesn't do that, right?
David: But we had to do it because we had already political prisoners. We have human rights violations because we have people dying literally on the streets because they didn't have anything to eat. So for me, it [would have been] more comfortable the moment I was mayor to say, “Okay, I'm doing well. I have 74 percent of approval. We're doing some cultural events. We're repairing some of the streets. I'm not going to be that outspoken and I'm going to survive.” Well, I'm going to survive but will the country survive? Of course not. So, I was, of course, very outspoken on that but there are people who take the other path.
David: Am I going to, you know, going to be like silenced and I'm not going to say anything? That's why, for me, some people call me “radical.” For me, that’s when you become part of the system. When you are, when you know that there are atrocities happening, human rights abuses, crimes against humanity, and you just say nothing to keep your role as a mayor, or governor, or whatever.
David: So you win, yes you win, yes. But then you go beyond winning.
David: For example, this regime in Venezuela is so corrupt. So one of my obsessions as a mayor was, “I'm going to be the most transparent local government ever.” Why? Because I'm going to show the people that you could be transparent in public administration.
Evan: Yeah. I mean, you're right—if you don't win, you're out.
Alena: I ran for office three times, and three times I lost. And when you’ve lost and you have a lot of followers who just believed that you are the winner, they start to feel that you are the loser and that they are the losers because they followed you.
Alena: So the main idea that I wanted to show you, just to highlight, to point it out, is that, no, you have to win. You have to show that you can, and people can. Because you are like the community. You're not just an individual who ran for office. You are the representative of your followers, of their ideas. And if you lose every time, like I lost, you start to feel that maybe you guys are right, or I'm a loser.
Alena: And I would say that it's the worst—it's the worst feeling you can ever have.
Evan: That's what I'm asking you.
Sochua: You're not, you're not.
Alena: No, I'm not. But that's the feeling that we all have inside of us because we are not the winners.
Evan: So that's what I'm asking you. Like, politics is about winning. So you're completely right you’ve got to win. But if the system is set up to make sure you don't win, then what do you say to people who say “I'm completely cynical, I'm out of politics”?
Evan: When we talked about the podcast, we said, “This is a call to action to get involved in politics.” So if it's a call to action to get involved in politics yet they don't let you win, does that mean you give up on politics?
Alena: Well, we have an amazing candidate in Venezuela now. So we have this hope and we have this hope because they can win.
Alena: But now we have this hope because she can win.
David: Well, but now someone is running on her behalf, but she was banned. So yeah, but sorry, when you are in a dictatorship, you have, I think that what dictators cannot … I mean, they have problem with us as dissidents and you are capable to reinvent yourself, right?
David: Okay, so you run for office and you lost. But now you're doing this podcast and you can—I mean, Putin will obviously not be comfortable about this, that this lady [Alena] is still, you know, saying things.
David: But, you know, you have to reinvent yourself, fortunately or unfortunately, because it's not a conventional system what we have in our countries.
Alena: I have a question about technology because, as we are in exile and as we can't use the conventional ways, as you mentioned, to mobilize the audience or deliver our narratives, what is the role of technology? And what kind of technology do we have to use to show people that they are still the main power?
Sochua: Every single day people in Cambodia, we can still use Facebook. We can still go into TikTok and all that. We can still, I'm saying still. So that's why from outside we have to, you know, I'm 70 years old, I knew nothing about technology and I can manage. But not as much, not so savvy, but I have to learn because that's the way people communicate.
Sochua: That's the way you put the message through to the people who are waiting to hear, right? So, that's why our message must be crafted in such a way that the message gets through there, and then there's the hope. And then it's in that exchange of energy, of synergy, that the regime, that the dictators are so, so anxious, and it drives them crazy.
Sochua: And now in Cambodia, just recently, the regime just started, invented a new app. They're very proud of it, and they say it's the “Cambodian app.” Yeah, forget it—it's the Chinese app, and they are going to close Facebook in Cambodia. So we are, it was on CNN today I was quoted, that we have to really say, “Okay, what if they close Facebook in Cambodia? They have this app, so what do we do now?”
Sochua: You know, you have to then learn a way to always be a few steps ahead of them. And technology is not static, it changes all the time. But don't stop there.
David: I think it's so powerful the technology. But obviously I have learned that as in medicine, technology evolves all the time and dictatorships also evolve in time.
David: That is why I was saying that maybe in the past, a dictatorship started like, “Okay, I'm going to do a coup d'etat, take tanks, go to the palace, kill some people, and that's it.” Not anymore. “I use democracy to destroy democracy.” And Venezuela, as I said, is an example that they have another way. So technology is also used, and you know this very well, by authoritarian regimes.
David: But I think it's a powerful opportunity for us, a powerful tool. I'll give you an example in Venezuela, like it's happening in Russia, and I guess in Cambodia, and many other countries very much. No media at all, right? Or if there's independent media, it has been bought by businessmen that are close to the regime, right? Which I think, someone told me once that did that, that is like Chavez implemented a long time ago he was advised by Russia and Belarus.
David: But anyway, so all these rallies that Maria Corina Machado is doing are called by Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Whatsapp has been probably the most powerful tool that we have had—just messaging hundreds of thousands of people. Okay, Maria Corina—Maria Corina is going to the east of the country or the west of the country, and she's banned from taking flights in Venezuela. She cannot take a flight. So every time that she goes to a city, she has to go by car. Where she is right now is 14 hours in a car from the capital.
Alena: Right now? Today?
David: Right now. But the regime has committed a mistake. Everyone knows that Maria Corina is going there. So everyone goes on the street because they are getting messages. “Oh, she's coming in three, in one hour, in two hours!” So that's powerful. That's one example. That's it. That's amazing. I mean, I can send you some of the pictures and tweets that are amazing.
David: The other thing, there's an initiative of a good friend of mine who was a political dissident, who was tortured, and he's now in exile. And he was writing a book about his story, and he's like, he's under 30, and he said, “Maybe no one will read this book. So you know what? I'm going share my story through virtual reality.” So to create a VR that you can you put the lens on and you see what is the biggest torture center in Latin America. And he's using technology. I'm working with him also on that project, promoting here it here in the U.S. and among other countries.
David: Well, that's powerful because you are providing the people—Victor says this in a very sarcastic way, “Well, it's a ‘cool’ way to show how these guys torture, right?” Right. Well, you go, maybe “cool” is not the right word, but he's saying that the way that of using technology, especially for young people, you can see in this case, what it is to be in a political prison in Venezuela. To listen to the tortures, see the darkness, see how is everything dirty, the bathroom that they had.
David: The people get shocked after they see that, and [with VR] you do that faster than reading a book, right? So, yes, I think we can use technology. I think something happened—maybe it didn't end in the best way—but the Arab Spring was where technology played a key role.
David: But what we need to understand is that dictatorships are using it as well. And I think those companies need to be more aware on that.
Evan: Do you think there's room to outmaneuver them by using technology or apps in ways that are different than what they were designed to do? So Alena told this great story about using Instagram as a fundraising tool. And I hear “Instagram,” I think “Oh, posting pictures on Instagram!” But you used Instagram for a political purpose in a way that was both incredibly creative but also incredibly powerful—and oh, by the way, [which] circumvented all of the restrictions that have been put on you for conventional fundraising.
Evan: So you're using a technology platform in a way that it was not intended but for a political purpose. That's amazingly creative.
Evan: Can you imagine using different technology platforms in ways that actually leverage things that are in them but are different than their original purpose? As a way to help maneuver against regimes that don't think as creatively?
Alena: I mean, when you're banned from any rally or demonstration, you just use this peer-to-peer technology and you communicate with each other without using their, you know, satellite or mobile stuff so they can't learn any information. It can be more creative. And also in terms of social media, for sure, all social media, like the conventional ones, Facebook or Instagram, are banned in Russia so we use VPNs. And if you use a VPN, you have to use the VPN created by independent vendors for you to know that all of your personal data are not going to be in the hands of these dictators. And that's why I think that cyber security, or data protection, or your privacy autonomy are key questions.
Evan: So is that a problem in Cambodia because they're using all this Chinese technology?
Sochua: Most of our members who are in prison right now is because they got caught using unsafe methods of the internet gateway. You have to go through the Ministry of Information, right? So we keep telling them, “Don't use messenger, use Signal.” But they don't know how to set up Signal. They don't know how. Anyway, that's why in our messages we also say a few things about how to be safe, how to communicate safely.
David: Well, you know, in the case of fundraising in Venezuela, the regime has been so aggressive on any initiative. They immediately, you know, put people in jail, or at risk or something.
Evan: If you try to raise money at all?
David: Yes, yes. So you have to be very careful that you're not doing something illicit, that is completely illicit to raise, you know, to do fundraising. And then to explain to the people who are donating what you are investing, especially if you are facing a dictatorship.
David: But at least in Venezuela, they are very aggressive on those types of initiatives. But I think that we have been able to beat them, I think on calling our protests and other mobilizations that are going on right now through social media. I think that is very important—or the example that I said before on the virtual reality to see a political prisoner.
David: So I think now the role is more on those companies, what those companies are going to do when those authoritarian regimes use those platforms to repress. To repress, to persecute, to harass.
David: I mean, I receive threats anytime that I tweet—from the regime. Anytime. Yeah, anytime. I receive threats from the regime. I'm constantly attacked because of my Jewish roots, and there are other people from the regime as well, they say to you whatever they … and they don't, they don't have any filter. They don't have any filter.
Sochua: Sorry, because I'm a woman, they say all the ugliest ...
David: Yeah, they could tell you, to Maria Corina as well. To Maria Corina, they call her horrible things. What are those companies are going to do? Because those companies were born in a country that provides liberties, that provides access to justice, that promotes a free economy and obviously have democracy.
David: That is why those companies were born here in the U.S. So if you try to found those companies in authoritarian regimes like the ones that we are come from, they wouldn't exist. I mean, why was Facebook not born in Russia, right? And why was Twitter was not born in Venezuela? Right? Or why was WhatsApp was not born in Cuba.
David: They don't promote that. You can't. You don't have liberty. You cannot do it. I mean, the moment that you have a great idea, the state will come and they will expropriate, or they will nationalize, or they will put you in jail. So those companies were born in a system that, by the way, I respect, I admire, that respects your liberties and provides a free economy, but authoritarian regimes are using those tools that democracy provided to harass.
Alena: We’re talking about digital harassment that they use.
Evan: I mean, if you, Russians, Cambodians, Venezuelans, you're three different continents—Europe, Latin America, Asia—you all face the same problem. What is the answer? Is it coalition building?
Alena: I think so. That's very important.
Evan: Why hasn't that happened?
David: It's happening. I think there are different initiatives that we are being articulated in this network of dissidents across the world, that are suffering from different dictatorships. That's a very good first step, you know, to know each other, to know the story of each of us, to understand the type of regime that we are facing. There are some similarities but in others there are differences as well, but that's a very important step. And I think as a dissident also, you need to raise more awareness in democracies across the world.
Sochua: That's why we are advocating for the work that is being done by dissidents outside, because we cannot just keep on going like this. If there's no funding, you know—however, the regime will say, “Oh, you get U. S. funding, so you work with, you serve the U.S., right? Then they will say anything they want—but to us, it is important that we sustain efforts, that we're united, that we have a platform, that we are recognized at the global level. And then when there are peace conferences, when there are summits, there are these leaders talking about our country, we should be there.
Sochua: And especially women. Because if we talk about reconstructing a free country, going back to Cambodia, who's going to define the Cambodia that we go back to? The same men? The same old men? Yeah, there's the leaders of these free world governments who will not consult us. No. That's why organizing from outside is so important.
Sochua: And we can do better because then we don't have the language barriers. But that's why it is important for—I'm talking about us in America, or in Europe, in Australia, everywhere—you have as a dissident, wherever you are, you have to be active. You have to, again, go back to politics.
Sochua: Cambodia is the seat of where China has a navy and military base. 00:56:27] So Cambodia helps, you know. It's not a small country. That's why global security is a global issue. And that's why every single election—and I agree with you, David—an election alone is not enough. It starts before, during, and after.
Evan: So that is a call to action.
Alena: Yeah, it is. And by the way, me and Sochua, we are on the same board of Vital Voices, so we are fighting for women’s empowerment all over the world. And you gave a great speech, as I told you that before. So we were highly inspired. We listened, and what we learned from you is, “Don't give up, fight, continue to fight.” And we were like, “Yay!”
Evan: And then win.
Alena: Yes, and then win!
Evan: You know, to me, that was just an amazing conversation. First, because as I said at the top of the episode, as an American, it's always hard to believe that in a dictatorship opposition parties can fight at all. And yet for Sochua, for David, and for you too, Alena, it's amazing to hear the variety of experiences, and tactics, and techniques that opposition parties can use, even in a constrained political system like that, to fight for a cause and mobilize a movement.
Evan: Second, because you're my co-host, and, you know, as diverse as these countries are—Venezuela, Cambodia, and Russia—a lot of what they said, I think, and I'd be curious how you feel about this, really seemed to resonate with your own experience.
Evan: And third, I was just amazed by the way they talked about staying connected to home when they're in exile.
Evan: You know, there are so many challenges that must face exiled political communities. And even things like, I can imagine, you know, a passport expires. And as an oppositionist in exile, you can hardly go back to your home government, run by a dictator, and ask them to renew your passport. So ironically, the dictators have this power over oppositionists who actually are the bold ones who are expressing bravely opposition to democratic causes. That really must have resonated with you.
Alena: Yeah, first, thank you so much for the idea of the episode, because I didn't feel like I'm just a co-host. It inspired me so much not to give up. Because you know, when I found out that I'm in exile, it was very hard. I lost a lot of kilos, and I had depression, and I didn't know how to fight back.
Alena: And they gave me so much power, I think, to start again, to unite our community, not to divide people, but to unite them.
Evan: And that's part of what's inspiring about it. It suggested that here are three countries—yours in Europe, David's in Latin America, Sochua’s in Asia—and not only are there commonalities of experience but also the ability to learn, and then build coalitions and collaborate, across borders.
Evan: And you know, what really blew me away was that exchange about never losing hope. Because at the end of the day, that's what politics is about. It's about forging the battle to win the ultimate success.
Alena: But I want to add one more idea about that. All the problems that were very common for all three countries, what does it mean for us? It means that if we unite, if we share our experience, we can be much more powerful than all these dictators in any countries.
Alena: If you enjoyed this episode, there is more Politics Possible to come. Check us out at politicspossible.com. Listen on the major podcast platforms, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube.
Evan: Tune in soon for episodes on everything from deepfakes to crypto, rock music and politics, and how students around the world are fighting against dictatorships.
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